Over the past decades, I have seen my salary purchasing power keep going lower and lower as inflation just keeps going up. In the early nineties my salary was frozen at zero yearly increase, for a few years, and more recently all I saw was a 1% to 1.25% increase, meanwhile the true inflation is always around 6 to 7%. Do not believe the governments claim that it is any less. The inflation rate of some items even go a lot up more such as gaz, oil, and food. So what are we supposed to do in a country such as Canada. Stop heating our homes, and not eat.
I could also go on on the price of gaz and oil. How come when the price of a barrel of oil was around $150, we were paying about $1.30 per litre, and about $1 per litre of oil to heat the homes. Now the price of a barrel is arounf $90, and the price per litre of gaz is still around $1.30, and the price of a litre of oil is still aound .91, so where is the justice here? Someone is really sucking us, and its from the big oil companies to all those wealthy oil barrons of the middle east. Canada is an oil producing country, how come we (Canadians) are not benefitting from this wealth as do the Saudis from their oil reserves?
Although the oil barrons are benefitting, I don't think it is true to say they are the primary culprits. Inflation is money creation. The people whom benefit from inflation are those who are actually doing the literal money printing, that is, central banks and the privileged banking elite.
As they print themselves money, or rather loan credit into existence, they are able to spend it first before anyone else on goods and services, thus raising prices over the long term. This makes things more expensive for everyone else, but the money printers do not feel the effects of the price increases as they can simply print more money.
Those hurt the most are those who receive the new credit last. Those on fixed incomes, furthest away from the centres of credit creation, etc. Rising prices of energy, as well as prices for food, comodities, etc. are a side effect of this money printing.
Having a higher salary is the definition of things being cheaper, when you put it in terms of real wages, so no, the things are not contradictory.
Rising real wages in society is just that. Because of increased productivity, (due to technology, capital accumulation) every hour of work creates more goods and services which causes prices to fall when compared to wages.
That is why standards of living have been going up, more or less, since the middle ages.
Raising someones salary causes a business to pass on the difference in salary to the cost of product. Therefore raising prices. Other individuals want raises too, so there businesses raise the value of their goods so the other people can go out and buy the inflated products. This not solving the individual prices. Now obviously what should be done is the businesses should eat the costs and provide a more fair wage to their employees and not raise the value of their products, but we all know what this does for the bottom line.
We now live in a world of globalization. A giant business can pay fair wages to a factory worker, whos likely going to strike and demand more money. Or he can find another country with workers who will just be happy to work for damn near close to nothing and reap the savings and provide better for his family.
Morality question, when we are shopping at Walmart, buying this cheap made in china crap which is way cheaper than the made in canada stuff beside it. Are we any better than this big business doing the same thing just trying to save some money?
The major problem with these societal issues is society. People are looking to leave more money in their bank accounts and don't consider their transactions and how it effects their future or the world around them. Yeah it's the banks fault for giving out shit loads of bad loans. Yeah it's corporations fault for outsourcing jobs and not providing a paycheck to a local business. Not to mention the human right's abuses in china are going to keep going on if big business keeps pouring money into their mega factories. But the average north american has no idea when they are shopping where their money goes after they reach the check out. Until the people of our country are more focuses on what's going on in the world around them and less focused on XBox and Survivor, our nation is going to continue to deteriorate into failure. It's time to stop occupying streets or land marks or places that are just irratating people. It's time to start occupying friends and families and start having discussions about why our economy is failing. We need to teach our kids how to not just save, but invest. The world needs to know that the rich are rich because we put them there, and if they don't deserve it we can always take our money elsewhere to a company or a person who deserves it, even if the price is a little higher.
It is unequivocal that those in power are trying to subjugate the peasant worker with the falsehood of the consumer dream. We the 99% have bought into the myth of the North American dream and despite our static incomes and miserable jobs we continue down the path hoping for a mythical retirement in a tropical environment that shall never be.
...youre not the 99%. you do not represent or speak for the 99%. first off, there is no 1% in Canada. Stop trying to piggy back on the U.S. by refering to it.
You speak for the campers, and the campers only. Less than 1%.
You can't seriously believe that the %1 referred to by many protesters only applies to the United States in today's age of Globalism, if anything this %1 can be restricted to that of the "first world". I personally don't believe this though as we all know countries with more money/resources have exploited other countries with less knowledge of the "market" for cheap labor and resources since the beginning of documented history.
And no I don't have to time to find all the facts to back this up since I have a college course to pass, but anyone with basic knowledge of history knows this is true.
you obviously aren't the 99%, you are merely among us (and hardly make up a large portion). how many people are occupying, like 1000 tops? and what's the population of ottawa, like 900K? i think most ordinary folks, also in the 99%, realize that even though you may have noble ideals, you're not going about making changes in a constructive manner. and i'm appalled to read about grafiti and garbage in our (we, most of the 99%) park. it's actually quite selfish that you (the small minority of the 99%) are bogarting the public park. give us, the 98%, our park back!
one other thing, you protesters speak condescendingly most of the time, like we, the 98%, are stupid robots who never had a thought to ourselves. if you don't want the 1% to make ungrounded comments about you, stop making them about everyone else.
"Most Canadians who know about the Occupy Wall Street movement view it favourably, a new poll has found, reflecting anxiety over job prospects and savings plans amid Canada’s fragile economic recovery.
The Nanos Research poll conducted for The Globe and Mail and La Presse found that 58 per cent of Canadians who are aware of the protests have a favourable or somewhat favourable impression of them."
Clearly a growing majority of Canadians disagree with you!
i don't think anyone should read too much in to "favourable or somewhat favourable impression" as a means of evidence that this many people are on side with the occupations. lots of folks would say there are some good issues coming out of the protests, which would indicate a somewhat favourable impression, but the occupation is useless. they're sort of two separate things, the protests and the occupation.
furthmore, not sure if it was here or at one of the other occupy websites, but one thing i've heard protesters say quite frequently is that popular media is one of the enemies. would globe and mail not count?
Im sorry. Claiming to "Be" the 99% means that the occupiers themselves are the whole 99%. You aren't. You are using terminology that the US is using, because it's catchy. Sorry, but you are more the 1, 2, maybe even 3%. You represent only your ideals and thoughts, and not those of greater Canada. You still have a right to be heard, but you are misrepresenting yourselves and what you stand for. Heck, no two occupiers will give the same answer as to what the movement is about. There is no protesting. Just sitting around sharing ideas with yourself. Get out, do something, make change. Il be the first to applaud and show respect. But you will not get either, from anyone, just sitting in a park.
the last thing most of us want are the economics of some unknown, no credibility jack asses to be shoved down our throat. anyone can jumble up the words from 1st year micro and macro to make it sound like they have a point.
this movement has no common direction and no realistic proposals for change. a group people pissed off for different reasons doesn't make an effective movement. leave the park already.
I agree with your sentiment. It's great to see people out execising their democracy, but there is a point where you need to shit or get off the pot. Rallying and marching only gets you so far. When I joined this forum I was hoping to find individuals who wanted to discuss and exercise solutions, but that is clearly not the goal here.
The solution this movement is looking for is not in a park. It's the minds ofthe "99%" who have handed power over to the organizations they now protest against. You guys need to get out of the park and into your homes/workplaces/schools and start the conversation that the complete disregard of credit to feed our over consumption of goods imported from a countries with no human rights is the problem. Spend your money more consciously.
doubly agreed. not objecting with the issues of the protesters, but nothing will come of people hanging out in tents. the marches, ok, sounds great and hopefully has some impact, but you don't need to occupy a public park to have marches and protests. speaking of which, it is a public park and in case you didn't realize, that means everyone should be able to use it! start discussions, start petitions, start real rallies, start campaigning for what you believe in, but it's not your park, it's everyones'.
Change requires a majority of citizens to be aware of the problems and to begin to work toward solutions. The Occupy movement is merely the first step and has been extremely successful in raising awareness globally about the dysfunction of financial and political systems to serve the majority of citizens adequately.
Obviously this movement will evolve, it already has.
Im sorry. Your movement has not evolved. New York City? Evolved.
What transpired in Greece? Evolved.
Ottawa? Hasn't evolved since it took over the park.
I personally respect a persons right to protest, what what have you protested? You took over a park, and hold personal meetings amongst yourselves. You prevent anyone with a film or video camera to wander about and capture what is going on. You have not spoken out publicly. You show support for other Countries by marching to their embassies, and then going back and hanging out in a park. What have you really done to ellicit change in the Country? Nothing.
And again, Occupy Ottawa/Occupy Canada has not evolved. No Nanos poll has ever been able to actually speak for all Canadians, since they dont poll every Canadian. They were wrong about the Federal Elections, they were wrong about the Ontario Provincial Elections. It's a sampling, and nothing more. They polled 1000, maybe 2000 people out of Canada - That does not even give an accurate represetation.
I was in Michigan to boycott the closings. I was in LA to protest Police Brutality. This is not a protest. It's people sitting around, talking about change amongst themselves. Get out and do something constructive, and earn the respect of Canadians. But sitting there doing nothing, isn't going to accomplish it, nor is it going to evolve.
agreed, right now it's just some people who think they're enlightened loitering and being a nuisance. you can only really claim the occupists as the people in support of your cause (whichever one we're talking about presently), and it's far less than 1%. newsflash, we're not learning anything new from you and 'raising awareness' is just another say of 'accomplishing nothing'.
Welcome to a debate on the tragedy of the commons. And how a common resource can be over used and exploited by any individual or group for personal gain to the loss of others.
This applies to resoures, land, equity, ... so many things.
It seems some of the press is reporting on what is going on -
Google one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers at www_guardian_co_uk or covert the below to a url
//www-guardian-co-uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/07/one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers
Boom and bust times - > "Between 1947 and 1979, productivity in the US rose by 119%, while the income of the bottom fifth of the population rose by 122%. But from 1979 to 2009, productivity rose by 80%, while the income of the bottom fifth fell by 4%. In roughly the same period, the income of the top 1% rose by 270%."
Very nice quote from BritTim on another board --
"The US (and most other developed economies) are in the midst of a painful readjustment resulting from competition from Asia and Latin America in a world where limits on energy and raw materials (at reasonable cost) provide upward limits on global growth. The average Chinese and Brazilian is getting richer. The average US and European citizen is becoming poorer. It may be possible for some developed economies to buck this trend for a while. Truly excellent economic management in countries (the US is one) with the good fortune to have special natural advantages could greatly alleviate the impact. Not even realizing the seriousness of the situation, and allowing a tiny elite to rape the country's wealth, while simultaneously running up massive debts that can never be repaid, is a recipe for a catastrophe.
"
Soumis par mxg123 le
Over the past decades, I have seen my salary purchasing power keep going lower and lower as inflation just keeps going up. In the early nineties my salary was frozen at zero yearly increase, for a few years, and more recently all I saw was a 1% to 1.25% increase, meanwhile the true inflation is always around 6 to 7%. Do not believe the governments claim that it is any less. The inflation rate of some items even go a lot up more such as gaz, oil, and food. So what are we supposed to do in a country such as Canada. Stop heating our homes, and not eat.
I could also go on on the price of gaz and oil. How come when the price of a barrel of oil was around $150, we were paying about $1.30 per litre, and about $1 per litre of oil to heat the homes. Now the price of a barrel is arounf $90, and the price per litre of gaz is still around $1.30, and the price of a litre of oil is still aound .91, so where is the justice here? Someone is really sucking us, and its from the big oil companies to all those wealthy oil barrons of the middle east. Canada is an oil producing country, how come we (Canadians) are not benefitting from this wealth as do the Saudis from their oil reserves?
Although the oil barrons are
Soumis par Jacob le
Although the oil barrons are benefitting, I don't think it is true to say they are the primary culprits. Inflation is money creation. The people whom benefit from inflation are those who are actually doing the literal money printing, that is, central banks and the privileged banking elite.
As they print themselves money, or rather loan credit into existence, they are able to spend it first before anyone else on goods and services, thus raising prices over the long term. This makes things more expensive for everyone else, but the money printers do not feel the effects of the price increases as they can simply print more money.
Those hurt the most are those who receive the new credit last. Those on fixed incomes, furthest away from the centres of credit creation, etc. Rising prices of energy, as well as prices for food, comodities, etc. are a side effect of this money printing.
You would like for things to
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
You would like for things to be cheaper, and have higher salarys for people selling/creating/providing these things?
Am I the only one who feels these two things pull in two different directions?
Ignorance and a lack of logic
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
Ignorance and a lack of logic seems to be a common theme in these protests.
Having a higher salary is the
Soumis par Jacob le
Having a higher salary is the definition of things being cheaper, when you put it in terms of real wages, so no, the things are not contradictory.
Rising real wages in society is just that. Because of increased productivity, (due to technology, capital accumulation) every hour of work creates more goods and services which causes prices to fall when compared to wages.
That is why standards of living have been going up, more or less, since the middle ages.
Raising someones salary
Soumis par anonylol le
Raising someones salary causes a business to pass on the difference in salary to the cost of product. Therefore raising prices. Other individuals want raises too, so there businesses raise the value of their goods so the other people can go out and buy the inflated products. This not solving the individual prices. Now obviously what should be done is the businesses should eat the costs and provide a more fair wage to their employees and not raise the value of their products, but we all know what this does for the bottom line.
We now live in a world of globalization. A giant business can pay fair wages to a factory worker, whos likely going to strike and demand more money. Or he can find another country with workers who will just be happy to work for damn near close to nothing and reap the savings and provide better for his family.
Morality question, when we are shopping at Walmart, buying this cheap made in china crap which is way cheaper than the made in canada stuff beside it. Are we any better than this big business doing the same thing just trying to save some money?
The major problem with these societal issues is society. People are looking to leave more money in their bank accounts and don't consider their transactions and how it effects their future or the world around them. Yeah it's the banks fault for giving out shit loads of bad loans. Yeah it's corporations fault for outsourcing jobs and not providing a paycheck to a local business. Not to mention the human right's abuses in china are going to keep going on if big business keeps pouring money into their mega factories. But the average north american has no idea when they are shopping where their money goes after they reach the check out. Until the people of our country are more focuses on what's going on in the world around them and less focused on XBox and Survivor, our nation is going to continue to deteriorate into failure. It's time to stop occupying streets or land marks or places that are just irratating people. It's time to start occupying friends and families and start having discussions about why our economy is failing. We need to teach our kids how to not just save, but invest. The world needs to know that the rich are rich because we put them there, and if they don't deserve it we can always take our money elsewhere to a company or a person who deserves it, even if the price is a little higher.
moneylenders
Soumis par Toro Sanchez (non vérifié) le
It is unequivocal that those in power are trying to subjugate the peasant worker with the falsehood of the consumer dream. We the 99% have bought into the myth of the North American dream and despite our static incomes and miserable jobs we continue down the path hoping for a mythical retirement in a tropical environment that shall never be.
Blame yourself for believing in the lie.
Enough....
Soumis par Yourenotthe99% (non vérifié) le
...youre not the 99%. you do not represent or speak for the 99%. first off, there is no 1% in Canada. Stop trying to piggy back on the U.S. by refering to it.
You speak for the campers, and the campers only. Less than 1%.
In response to post "Enough...."
Soumis par 99% being only ... (non vérifié) le
You can't seriously believe that the %1 referred to by many protesters only applies to the United States in today's age of Globalism, if anything this %1 can be restricted to that of the "first world". I personally don't believe this though as we all know countries with more money/resources have exploited other countries with less knowledge of the "market" for cheap labor and resources since the beginning of documented history.
And no I don't have to time to find all the facts to back this up since I have a college course to pass, but anyone with basic knowledge of history knows this is true.
The 1%
Soumis par Neil le
Logically of course there is a wealthiest 1% in every country including Canada.
The Occupy movement does not claim to "represent" the 99% we claim to "be" the 99%.
you obviously aren't the 99%,
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
you obviously aren't the 99%, you are merely among us (and hardly make up a large portion). how many people are occupying, like 1000 tops? and what's the population of ottawa, like 900K? i think most ordinary folks, also in the 99%, realize that even though you may have noble ideals, you're not going about making changes in a constructive manner. and i'm appalled to read about grafiti and garbage in our (we, most of the 99%) park. it's actually quite selfish that you (the small minority of the 99%) are bogarting the public park. give us, the 98%, our park back!
one other thing, you protesters speak condescendingly most of the time, like we, the 98%, are stupid robots who never had a thought to ourselves. if you don't want the 1% to make ungrounded comments about you, stop making them about everyone else.
Canadians tend to view Occupy in positive light: poll
Soumis par Neil le
Canadians tend to view Occupy protests in positive light: poll
"Most Canadians who know about the Occupy Wall Street movement view it favourably, a new poll has found, reflecting anxiety over job prospects and savings plans amid Canada’s fragile economic recovery.
The Nanos Research poll conducted for The Globe and Mail and La Presse found that 58 per cent of Canadians who are aware of the protests have a favourable or somewhat favourable impression of them."
Clearly a growing majority of Canadians disagree with you!
i don't think anyone should
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
i don't think anyone should read too much in to "favourable or somewhat favourable impression" as a means of evidence that this many people are on side with the occupations. lots of folks would say there are some good issues coming out of the protests, which would indicate a somewhat favourable impression, but the occupation is useless. they're sort of two separate things, the protests and the occupation.
furthmore, not sure if it was here or at one of the other occupy websites, but one thing i've heard protesters say quite frequently is that popular media is one of the enemies. would globe and mail not count?
No you are not the 99%
Soumis par Bulldog (non vérifié) le
Im sorry. Claiming to "Be" the 99% means that the occupiers themselves are the whole 99%. You aren't. You are using terminology that the US is using, because it's catchy. Sorry, but you are more the 1, 2, maybe even 3%. You represent only your ideals and thoughts, and not those of greater Canada. You still have a right to be heard, but you are misrepresenting yourselves and what you stand for. Heck, no two occupiers will give the same answer as to what the movement is about. There is no protesting. Just sitting around sharing ideas with yourself. Get out, do something, make change. Il be the first to applaud and show respect. But you will not get either, from anyone, just sitting in a park.
the last thing most of us
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
the last thing most of us want are the economics of some unknown, no credibility jack asses to be shoved down our throat. anyone can jumble up the words from 1st year micro and macro to make it sound like they have a point.
this movement has no common direction and no realistic proposals for change. a group people pissed off for different reasons doesn't make an effective movement. leave the park already.
I agree with your sentiment.
Soumis par anonylol le
I agree with your sentiment. It's great to see people out execising their democracy, but there is a point where you need to shit or get off the pot. Rallying and marching only gets you so far. When I joined this forum I was hoping to find individuals who wanted to discuss and exercise solutions, but that is clearly not the goal here.
The solution this movement is looking for is not in a park. It's the minds ofthe "99%" who have handed power over to the organizations they now protest against. You guys need to get out of the park and into your homes/workplaces/schools and start the conversation that the complete disregard of credit to feed our over consumption of goods imported from a countries with no human rights is the problem. Spend your money more consciously.
doubly agreed. not objecting
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
doubly agreed. not objecting with the issues of the protesters, but nothing will come of people hanging out in tents. the marches, ok, sounds great and hopefully has some impact, but you don't need to occupy a public park to have marches and protests. speaking of which, it is a public park and in case you didn't realize, that means everyone should be able to use it! start discussions, start petitions, start real rallies, start campaigning for what you believe in, but it's not your park, it's everyones'.
Occupations have raised awareness
Soumis par Neil le
Change requires a majority of citizens to be aware of the problems and to begin to work toward solutions. The Occupy movement is merely the first step and has been extremely successful in raising awareness globally about the dysfunction of financial and political systems to serve the majority of citizens adequately.
Obviously this movement will evolve, it already has.
There has been no evolvement
Soumis par Bulldog (non vérifié) le
Im sorry. Your movement has not evolved. New York City? Evolved.
What transpired in Greece? Evolved.
Ottawa? Hasn't evolved since it took over the park.
I personally respect a persons right to protest, what what have you protested? You took over a park, and hold personal meetings amongst yourselves. You prevent anyone with a film or video camera to wander about and capture what is going on. You have not spoken out publicly. You show support for other Countries by marching to their embassies, and then going back and hanging out in a park. What have you really done to ellicit change in the Country? Nothing.
And again, Occupy Ottawa/Occupy Canada has not evolved. No Nanos poll has ever been able to actually speak for all Canadians, since they dont poll every Canadian. They were wrong about the Federal Elections, they were wrong about the Ontario Provincial Elections. It's a sampling, and nothing more. They polled 1000, maybe 2000 people out of Canada - That does not even give an accurate represetation.
I was in Michigan to boycott the closings. I was in LA to protest Police Brutality. This is not a protest. It's people sitting around, talking about change amongst themselves. Get out and do something constructive, and earn the respect of Canadians. But sitting there doing nothing, isn't going to accomplish it, nor is it going to evolve.
agreed, right now it's just
Soumis par one of the other 98% (non vérifié) le
agreed, right now it's just some people who think they're enlightened loitering and being a nuisance. you can only really claim the occupists as the people in support of your cause (whichever one we're talking about presently), and it's far less than 1%. newsflash, we're not learning anything new from you and 'raising awareness' is just another say of 'accomplishing nothing'.
Please leave our park.
Soumis par Anonymous (non vérifié) le
Please leave our park. Thanks.
It is my Park and I'm staying
Soumis par Richard (non vérifié) le
Welcome to a debate on the tragedy of the commons. And how a common resource can be over used and exploited by any individual or group for personal gain to the loss of others.
This applies to resoures, land, equity, ... so many things.
Article to Read
Soumis par Richard (non vérifié) le
It seems some of the press is reporting on what is going on -
Google one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers at www_guardian_co_uk or covert the below to a url
//www-guardian-co-uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/07/one-per-cent-wealth-destroyers
Boom and bust times - > "Between 1947 and 1979, productivity in the US rose by 119%, while the income of the bottom fifth of the population rose by 122%. But from 1979 to 2009, productivity rose by 80%, while the income of the bottom fifth fell by 4%. In roughly the same period, the income of the top 1% rose by 270%."
Very nice quote from BritTim on another board --
"The US (and most other developed economies) are in the midst of a painful readjustment resulting from competition from Asia and Latin America in a world where limits on energy and raw materials (at reasonable cost) provide upward limits on global growth. The average Chinese and Brazilian is getting richer. The average US and European citizen is becoming poorer. It may be possible for some developed economies to buck this trend for a while. Truly excellent economic management in countries (the US is one) with the good fortune to have special natural advantages could greatly alleviate the impact. Not even realizing the seriousness of the situation, and allowing a tiny elite to rape the country's wealth, while simultaneously running up massive debts that can never be repaid, is a recipe for a catastrophe.
"
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